bye bye england, if you're not good enough to qualify, you're not good enough to be there. With only 1 world cup in 66, i say the english talk too much for their own good.. they win against a country you cant even see in the map (Andorra) and think they can beat anyone 'on their day'- last time i seen England dominate so convincingly was when they thrashed Germany 4-1.

could it be the manager? could it be because players arent hungry enough? could it be selection (reputation rather than form)? could it be because the media hypes up english players so much that, it gets to their heads eventually? could it be because they have too many foreign players in the premiership? or could it be the philosophy of English football which is being taught to the kids at youth academies right up to senior football?

too many questions and im sure non will be addressed, apart from the impact of foreign players in the english football leagues. bye bye england. i hope i live to see them go to a final of a credible tournament.. 1 day.

The problem with england is the same problem with spain...

The players lack of cooperation..

they work as invidividuals and most hate each other....

They have great players but not teamwork....

and Football is a team effort my friend...

We have no chance to qualify, its our own fault for appointing that idiot when Scolari was ready to come in, Mclaren was the easy option, I'd rather have my mum choose the team.

It matters not what we have won since 66, we have been screwed quite a few times and this will go on, we need somebody like mourinho who will stand up to fifa, maybe we should cry more like Italy did in 2002,

they cried conspiracy then in 2006 referees couldn't wait to help them.

England tournament record

86........screwed by argentine cheat and worlds greatest ever player maradona.

90........lose to germany on penalties in semi final

94.......fail to qualify after poor campaign

96.......lose to germany in semi final on penalties after dominating, gazza misses ball by inches and anderton hits the post in extra time.

98..........screwed by argentine cheat simeone and referee, even if beckham had deserved to be sent off(which he didn't) we still dominated with ten men and sol campbell scores the "winner" in extra time which is disallowed for an imaginary push.

2000......out in group after referee awards romania stoppage time penalty

2002......lose in quarter finals to brazil and ronaldinhos bizarre free kick cross that went in, beckham and owen played the match injured.

2004.....lose to portugal on penalties after superstar teen rooney is injured with england dominating, sol campbell scores dramatic "winner" in extra time but its de ja vu as referee disallows goal for imaginary foul.

2006.....lose again on penalties to portugal after rooney is sent off and we play 60 minutes plus extra time with 10 men

its just bad luck combined with the vendetta against us.

with the premiership being the worlds strongest league the national team is taking 2nd place at the moment.

We will come back stronger, form is temporary, class is permanent.we invented this game and gave it to the world and it saddens me the way people want us to fail, you can feel it all around, the hatred of the english, it doesn't help that half of fifa feels that way aswell.

bobbymoore:

We have no chance to qualify, its our own fault for appointing that idiot when Scolari was ready to come in, Mclaren was the easy option, I'd rather have my mum choose the team.

It matters not what we have won since 66, we have been screwed quite a few times and this will go on, we need somebody like mourinho who will stand up to fifa, maybe we should cry more like Italy did in 2002,

they cried conspiracy then in 2006 referees couldn't wait to help them.

 

England tournament record

86........screwed by argentine cheat and worlds greatest ever player maradona.

90........lose to germany on penalties in semi final (you didnt deserve to beat Cameroon in the quarters, referee was racist and gave all the decisions to England)

94.......fail to qualify after poor campaign (why?)

96.......lose to germany in semi final on penalties after dominating, gazza misses ball by inches and anderton hits the post in extra time. (good tournament for england, but again, you dont score, you're more likely to lose on penalties)

98..........screwed by argentine cheat simeone and referee, even if beckham had deserved to be sent off(which he didn't) we still dominated with ten men and sol campbell scores the "winner" in extra time which is disallowed for an imaginary push. (sol's always been unlucky with referees, but you didn't exactly outplay Argentina)

2000......out in group after referee awards romania stoppage time penalty (because it WAS a penalty lol)

2002......lose in quarter finals to brazil and ronaldinhos bizarre free kick cross that went in, beckham and owen played the match injured. (you were outplayed in that game, and yes, Ronnie meant it)

2004.....lose to portugal on penalties after superstar teen rooney is injured with england dominating, sol campbell scores dramatic "winner" in extra time but its de ja vu as referee disallows goal for imaginary foul. (should never let a 2-0 lead slip away, if anyone deserved to win, it was portugal)

2006.....lose again on penalties to portugal after rooney is sent off and we play 60 minutes plus extra time with 10 men (that was an OUTSTANDING performance by England, with 10 men. Had Rooney not acted like the fat child he is, maybe you would have got something out of that game.

 

 

its just bad luck combined with the vendetta against us. (vendetta? lol)

with the premiership being the worlds strongest league the national team is taking 2nd place at the moment.

We will come back stronger, form is temporary, class is permanent. (judging England's record, i question that theory all together) we invented this game (you didnt, you structured it properly)and gave it to the world (i agree, most top clubs have some sort of English involvement) and it saddens me the way people want us to fail, you can feel it all around, the hatred of the english, it doesn't help that half of fifa feels that way aswell.

 

dont forget england's 3rd goal in 66 didnt actually cross the line. but thats history now.

more relevant is the fact that this policy of selecting players according to their reputation (which is generated mostly by the media) rather than form or performances is a biig problem. Class is permanent, yet Rooney managed 3 years or more without an international goal.. AND still got selected whenever fit.. blimmey.

lol - class is class, form is temporary is as true as the sun rising tomorrow or that Rain falls in England....

1st thing:    People want England to fail because of their involvement with historical disasters or am...foreign policies.  Slavery quickly comes to mind. 

2nd thing:  England seems to be of the view that they have the best league in the World with the best players AND that the world owes them something for GIVING them football, no my friend, nobody in life owes them anything.  If anything, it is England that owes the World something for having what they have, after so many countries contributed to their success whether by force or not.

3rd thing:  As we all know, not many people disliked the Germans with Hitler and all, as well as the Italians, i guess for having the Pope residinge in Rome.  Contentiuos issues, but Germany and Italy won't roll over in major football competitions.  England on the other hand struggle to even qualify for the tournaments.  They're overrated for the most part.  Their managerial and tactical skills lack something when the playing field is level.

England for me have never disappointed in football.  Teams like Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Germany, Holland, France, Spain among others have though and that is because I don't see English players as better than anyone else.  You have the greatest players in the World and most are not English.   For example, Best strikers = Zlatan, Ruud, David Villa, Totti etc.  Rooney and crocked Owen fall behind the top 3 whoever they are.  Best Midfielders = Kaka, C. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, (lol)Riquelme.  Gerard and Lampard although can be considered among them tends to fall behind, it would be unthinkable for Brazil, Argentina, Germany and Italy not to qualify for a World Cup, Euro or Copa America, but England don't qualify for their major competitions occasionally.  Best defenders = Nesta, Roberto Carlos, Cannavaro, John Terry?  you always tend to find either players that can fill English players' positions better or just as good.  Best Managers = none are English - Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Scolari, Rijkaard, Benitez, Lippi etc.  Perhaps the WEAKEST area of the English game and quite possibly the most important position on the team.  Best Goalkeepers = Casillas, Buffon, Kahn, Lehman, Cech, Van der Saar....up til last night i heard English Goalkeeper being described as prone to errors David James and Paul Robinson doesn't even play for a Champions League team

It's an achilles heel, and i constantly hear that England needs to return to the top of football...The only top of football England were was one World Cup and their English Club teams propped up by players like Platini etc. and now C. Ronaldo etc.

I'm sorry, but there is not class is class talk about England, their form is temporary for sure...teams like Brazil, Germany, Italy etc, don't even bother playing full strength teams against teams like Andorra and so on.  Yet England is comfortably beaten by Russia and Croatia.  And i must emphasize that I don't think England is necessarily better than these teams, just that the players play in a league with more money and this has an effect on expectations.

You see look at this, suppose we say England have some of the best players in the World, then it should be reflected in major tournaments like the European Championship and World Cups.  At club level they seem good enough, but then who are the managers - Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez - if anyone else succeeds it will be Juande Ramos, Sven and you see a trickle of English managers like Big Sam who may be able to compare to Juande and maybe Benitez, but not Wenger and Ferguson, so....the English lose again.

this whole thing about class is class and form is temporary can only be applied to players with incredibly high calibre.. and even then you get situations where exceptional talents can and will have a period where they're not producing.. so is the answer for that is to continue fielding these players (because they have class) i say no. look at Ronaldinho now.. he's playing but not producing, the way to make him produce is to bench him a few games, get that hunger going again then try him again.. not to simply put him on the team because of his name. i believe every team should field players according to form, not 'class'.

some good points you make there teee.though i do think fifa is against england and always will be.it could just be coincedence but how can one team have so much go against them?

and mate we did outplay argentina big time in 98, they couldn't get the ball, just like we couldn't get the ball off them in 2002

And a racist referee against cameroon?

come on mate get real, i've never seen 2 more blatant penalties than that game, and cameroon even got a penalty themselves, the cameroon squad of 1990 was the most dirty team i ever seen.you make a lot of sense though, when i first seen your posts i had you marked down as an ignorant anti england jealous stereotype but u seem to know what u are talking about which is refreshing.

i watched that game and i thought all the decisions were going englands way, and it wasnt only me.

as for 98 outplaying a team means dominating them, but clearly England didnt and lost.

problem i have with england, which can also be regarded as obstacles to England's success: how the media over-rates english players (especially after they beat teams arent even in the bloody map),  how they practically tell the manager who to select, and when he fails they pile up on him til he gets the sack; philosophy- the emphasis on long balls play, and finally, selection; players who get selected are always picked because of the name rather than form. So you had the EPL's top scorers in Defo and Bent out of the world cup for Owen who had been injured and Rooney who was also not fit enough.

or playing Lampard and Gerrard when only 1 of them should be on that field.. or not letting somebody capable take charge of england, because he had to be 'english'.. fair enough, but is there a capable english manager around? the answer is no. Mclaren was part of the problem to begin with, not its solution.

when other managers criticise the youth academy systems in england, they get bashed by idiots like Howard wilkinson. The philosophy of the english game needs to upgrade a little. tell me which english footballer actually has some sort of individual skill? the closest you guys have at the moment, is Jo Cole, and even when he does step overs, it doesnt look natural at all.. and that is the reason why if somebody who is used to flair like scolari comes to manage england, he'll struggle.

my other problem with the english is how oblivious they are to other leagues and other players from different leagues, or how defensive and biased they are when english teams play other teams.. if Rooney dives, he didnt mean it, if messi does the same thing.. he's a cheat. Or when Del horno fouled Messi when Chelsea played Barca.. clear foul which Messi had to jump out of or he would have had his leg broken, yet the media and the commentators declared he was cheating.. i dont like that either, Messi was getting abused by chelsea players right throughout the match but commentators didnt even say a word.

for example i was watching a game recently, Teves was doing so much hard work, yet on match of the day they only talked about ROONEY... highlighting the simplest of things, when there were other players on that pitch doing better stuff than Rooney.

so many good players come and go without being given a chance to do well in England colours, because only in England you'd let a striker who hasnt scored in 3 years!!!!!! play in the starting 11 in every game when he's fit. crazy world.

...exactly philosophy is almost fundamental to success, that is, a large part of success is attitude.

You have said almost perfectly.  It's like the English somehow believe that they are the best footballers, they have the best league and everyone should do it this way.  Is it because they set up alot of the best teams or best leagues around the world?  Ok, they've claimed credit for Brazilian league and teams like Ac Milan, but come on, that's history....Be realistic or honest at least.  Ac Milan beat the best team in the EPL last season soundly in Italy and could've done it at Old Trafford too, from all reports, and yet you're maintaining that the teams in the EPL are way better than in other leagues...why?  Fans are fans, ok, but all over TV and the media, you need to at least reduce some bias and admit ok, teams in Spain and Italy have been a little better than ours.

The fact that England's currency is the pound and so many of their clubs have alot of money, is a huge factor for so many players wanting to go to England to play professional football, otherwise let's be frank, they're going elsewhere especially if you're South American and to a lesser extent African.  The pound is generally higher than most other currencies and so for players and generally people who are looking to work overseas and coming from humble settings, England tends to give you a better life compared to where you came from.  That's why I often say England has more money than everyone else.

I have no clue why they overrate their players.  Emile Heskey would've NEVER played for many of the top teams in World Football.  There's no way a player should be allowed to start for your national team without scoring 10 goals in a season while others are begging with higher performances.  THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!    I mean he was a guaranteed starter for goodness sake.   I found it mind-boggling...

England being beaten by Spain is a shock result...WHY I ASK? Are you saying that you're that much better?  It's like England suddenly forget that they play against these players in the champions league and often come up second best. Real Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona etc. have alot of Spanish players mixed with South Americans, French, African etc.  Even Brazil admits beating Paraguay is tough, but for some reason it doesn't occur to England that teams from Mexico, Paraguay, Uraguay, Cameroon, Ghana, Nigeria etc. might actually be able to beat them by legitimately playing better than them.  It's not like Ac Milan is playing Wigan, it's teams whether club or national level who have very talented players and will beat you the same way Italy or Germany beats you if you make mistakes. 

I can't exactly figure it out, but something missing from English players even when they're winning.  It's like they beat Trinidad & Tobago and they made it look hard while Argentina played Jamaica in a World Cup and completely dismissed them.    I totally agreed with Benitez with his comment on the difference between Spain and England's league with respect to the reserves.  But again, England think they have the best league and how dear a foreigner come and say that Spain has a better structure for reserve team players, but it's true, you don't want to have injured players and fringe players only able to play top flight games when they could gain match fitness at lower levels with lower risks.

the thing is guys, nobody thinks the english are as bad as the english, i can't remember the last english person i met who actually thought we were any good.

nobody is more critical of england than english people, what i don't get is this myth that we hype up our players, who hypes them up? cos i don't and have never met anyone that does.

is it the media?

its like when we all realised how good rooney was, being an everton fan i seen him from when he was 15 and it was just so obvious how good he was, the thing is that people couldn't wait to tell me how tevez and messi are so much better, so what, tevez an messi are brilliant players, i seen tevez at boca years ago and i don't need some no nothing no it all to tell me he is good, it amazes me how people still criticise rooney, he is 21 years old and leads the line at one of the worlds biggest clubs and has scored 20 for the last 2 seasons running, if he was brazilian people would be falling over themselves to praise him but because he is english he is vilified.

guys nobody claims england is way ahead of the other leagues, personally i believe spain has the best league technically, italy has the toughest league and england is the most exciting.

its a fact that england has the biggest league in the world, its the home of football, we are not the best we know we are not the best but we have a great league and love our football more than anyone, personally i think ac milan is the worlds greatest club to pick up on gregorys point as my thread in the serie A forum states.

to be honest i understand what u guys are saying but just forget about all the idiots, enjoy your football whatever anyone says, i was at old trafford the night real madrid played united off the pitch and when ronaldo(brazil) was substituted he got a standing ovation, this would not happen anywhere in the world except here.everything you accuse england of italy and spain is just as guilty, we are just hated more.

what you think is england problem? managers or players?

Just to comment:  Media, players and coaches like Ferguson and Mourinho do claim that the EPL is the best in the World.  This is a fairly interesting discussion.  England's players are a bit overrated and their managers are less recognised than most others...But i think it's more the players than the manager, because surely Mark Hughes or Big Sam can coach a Brazil team to win a World Cup.  Bryan Robson won the league in Spain, so i'm inclined to think that the players are overrated.  Sven mentioned something that stuck last World cup when he carried Theo Walcott.  Give me better players and i'll play them.  Arsene Wenger mentioned it too, I can't play English player just for nationality, this is Arsenal and he said he has to choose the best to win trophies. 

England's problem is not even cut & dry, i guess that's obvious otherwise it would've been fixed.  But honestly trying to understand why England have such difficulties competing with other nations has proven to be more difficult than explaining Barcelona's collapse last season.  It's like they celebrate things that aren't really special.  For example, Lukas Pudolski, Wayne Rooney and Gilardino are probably on the same level, but for some reason Pudolski and Gilardino won't be guaranteed starters for their country while Wayne Rooney will have to rush from a broken leg to recover for the World cup in like than 10 weeks.  Personally I found Alan Shearer much better, but he stayed at Newcastle.

England has a problem, i think, with culture and perception.  This affects their competitiveness in many fields, not just football and sports.  Most countries have clear identities and distinct cultures.  What seperates Italy, Germany and Brazil from England is that there's a clear definition of who you are.  Italy = defense, accuracy, tactics and high performance just like Ferrari.  Germany is efficiency like volkswagon i think and Brazil is (Samba) style and flair with an obvious appreciation for the basics as Dunga emphasises.  England and the USA are similar in many respects where this is concerned.  There's a missing clear identity and it seems to affect most English speaking countries more than anything else.  I'm not sure if it has to do with migration, but even when people go to Italy.   

I heard John Terry say he likes to be kicked in training and he loves the rough and  tumble way the EPL is, and i said to myself, but why?  Is it better that way?  That' seems better suited to rugby.  Because he was making mention of the same Messi vs Chelsea issue.  Surely football is not just about who kicks harder and who can take more kicks, goals right? 

In terms of football success, I would compare England and Spain where perhaps Spain are greater under-achievers

bobbymoore:

 

 

the thing is guys, nobody thinks the english are as bad as the english, i can't remember the last english person i met who actually thought we were any good.

nobody is more critical of england than english people, what i don't get is this myth that we hype up our players, who hypes them up? cos i don't and have never met anyone that does.

is it the media?

its like when we all realised how good rooney was, being an everton fan i seen him from when he was 15 and it was just so obvious how good he was, the thing is that people couldn't wait to tell me how tevez and messi are so much better, so what, tevez an messi are brilliant players, i seen tevez at boca years ago and i don't need some no nothing no it all to tell me he is good, it amazes me how people still criticise rooney, he is 21 years old and leads the line at one of the worlds biggest clubs and has scored 20 for the last 2 seasons running, if he was brazilian people would be falling over themselves to praise him but because he is english he is vilified.

guys nobody claims england is way ahead of the other leagues, personally i believe spain has the best league technically, italy has the toughest league and england is the most exciting.

its a fact that england has the biggest league in the world, its the home of football, we are not the best we know we are not the best but we have a great league and love our football more than anyone, personally i think ac milan is the worlds greatest club to pick up on gregorys point as my thread in the serie A forum states.

to be honest i understand what u guys are saying but just forget about all the idiots, enjoy your football whatever anyone says, i was at old trafford the night real madrid played united off the pitch and when ronaldo(brazil) was substituted he got a standing ovation, this would not happen anywhere in the world except here.everything you accuse england of italy and spain is just as guilty, we are just hated more.

what you think is england problem? managers or players?

if Rooney was such a great striker, how then could a good striker have a drought- 3 or 4 year drought that is as far as internationals are concerned?! so the kid can shoot and he's strong- granted, but is he world class? i say no, you clearly think he is- AND THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. your 'good' players are given a higher recognition than they deserve, kickstarts with the media then everybody else falls into line; managers, pundits and fans. why? because 1) he's english 2) there arent many outstanding english players compared with the foreign players in the EPL.

so then, what happens when a good player is hyped up to be world class? (Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand etc) you get a situation where other good players like (sol campbell for example) get benched for for the new class of untouchables in an England team that ineveitebly ends up suffering (then collapsing) from the sheer weight of expectations from a nation that's led to believe their players are better than they are.

the philosophy of the English game is based on pace, power and long balls, so the kind of players England produce have nothing to do with other sides of the game which are regarded universally as important- skill, flair, teamwork, passing, movement. England traditionally want Pace, Power in the air, and of course long balls play.. and its here where we find wingers arent even expected to beat their men, instead the emphasis in England is on how to CROSS the ball into the box.. and THATS where we find players like Beckham get to have a go.. for a very long time (just think how many right wingers have come and gone without getting a chance because of Beckham). So the academy in England is partly responsibile for England's contineous failures in the international scene, for it is the tool, if you like, of implementing that  'philosophy' that seeks players that only fit in with the English school of thought- anybody who displys other sides of the game (skills, passing ability, vision) is not going to fit in with the physiscal approach of the English school of thought which only seeks Power, strength, pace and areal presence.. and they are quickly and promptly discarded. After considerable thoughts into this i come to realise that, England do not actually have many men capable of actually BEATING their man; SWP, Lennon and maybe J.Cole are.. pretty ridiculous for a nation that expects to win a world cup.

The Germans dont play attractive football either, but their is more efficient; the whole team attacks, the whole team defends. Their team work is much superior to the English and they have a 'never die' attitude that really one of the main factors to their superior history to most nations- That is their philosophy, and it proved itself time and time again.

You buy a young English talent, it costs you around 10-20 mill. You buy a foreign talent, he costs you a quarter of the price. its as simple as that. No wonder why not enough English players are getting in the top clubs. sure the foreigners are gona be blamed for this, and in some ways it is true. But in the midst of all this, nobody is likely to take on board what the likes of Wenger has been saying for years, and i dont think anybody can question Wenger's ability for spotting talents.

Nobody questioned the passion of the English, at times i feel as though England replaced religion with football, the problem is that you actually believe what papers like The Sun, Mirror and Daily sport tell you.

i think that most of the passionate football players are brazilian and not english.....

agreed....

Exactly..this goes back to my point that the English thinks that things like Passion, love of country etc  are unique to them, while other countries seem to show more love and passion when playing with their national teams.  Take Eto'o for example.  I won't say anyone country has more passionate football players, but i don't think English players and fans are necessarily the most passionate - again i say, in England, there's more money.  You can afford to have 60,000 people watching a game for exhorbitant fees and players can afford to be paid 120,000 pounds a week, so there's an incentive that is not there in other less prosperous countries. 

I'm sure we've heard the old view by most south americans{brazilians and argentines in particular} that goes, " i will end my career with...{what ever their home team was}", but we all know a man has to eat, so go where the money is and, so why pass up the opportunity to do what you can be GREAT at and get PAID?

Teee is correct!  The overrating goes much deeper than just selecting the wrong or lesser talented players for more savvy or popular players.  It affects how the academies are set up, the type of players that are developed and the POSSIBLE success of certain players to cite a few symptoms.  On the financial side, you get many situations where Riquelme is sold for 3 million euros and SWP for 21 million pounds purely because of the national identity.  It means also that Rooney will be "successful" as opposed to say Diego Forlan or Dietmar Berbatov in the EPL for a point i raised in another forum too, Rooney is English and a national team player.  It's like the money clouds the appreciation for BETTER players notwithstanding their nationality.  I must note that this ALSO happens in other countries like Germany, Italy, Brazil, Argentina where certain players do not fit the style although they are pretty good, but at least they can succeed at club level and force their way in.  For example, Pirlo, Veron, Cafu and other success stories.

The overrating done in the EPL follows a philosophy that you make yourself look good, which kinda intimidates others.  However, it only goes so far, since Brazilians, Germans, Italians, Argentines and other footballing nations also believe that they are pretty good, so it doesn't matter how much hype say Gerard and rooney gets - it's like, "prove it!"  That brings about how the teams are selected and how it performs.  I would say that Romario was dropped for Brazil for doing far more than Heskey, but Heskey maintained a guaranteed spot.  Podolski went through a goal drought for Germany and his place was in jeopardy, but Rooney didn't score for 3 or 4 years and he cannot be dropped.  Ronaldinho wasn't superb at the WC and Dunga was given free reign to sub him, while Lampard spot for England and Chelsea was assured.  It's like England's selection process is twisted.  Argentina and other less successful teams pratice similarly strange selections as well.  And obviously they are less successful than those who keep it about 75% clean as far as selection for national teams are concerned.

This is why teams like Germany, Italy and Brazil can afford to play many "fringe" players and still beat very good teams while teams like England, Argentina etc HAVE to over-work their "star" players in order to have the best chance to get the best results.

Omar Hitzfeld, “I’m expecting them to play a typically English game.“ That would mean a physically robust approach, with plenty of long balls looking to exploit the forwards’ aerial prowess.